Author Topic: Instant death.  (Read 5429 times)

Offline irmo

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Instant death.
« on: January 20, 2008, 05:11:03 pm »
Hi,

I've been around for a bit, but haven't used the forum yet. I decided to register today, instead of asking questions on the ds channel. I'm not a coder - my lpc knowledge is very limited - but I'm slowly learning basic stuff. So be warned, some of my questions will sound very noobish and might even make some of you giggle. :)

I'm currently working on a translation project, using ds to create a dutch mud. But I definitly want to change some things and have some new stuff implemented, so I'm hoping some of you guys are willing and able to guide me.

I'm considering using instant death on my mud, but I'm not sure how hard it will be to create a working system for it - or even where to start for that matter. If anyone could shet some light on this I'd be very thankfull.

Smoking is another thing that has been on my list for a while (sigs, cigars, pipes etc) I've been looking at examples from other muds (other libs), but haven't been able to figure out a way to get it to work on ds. If any of you guys got something like this to work, or have been wanting to work on it, and would be willing to let me use the code, or get something similar to work on my mud, i'd be a very happy noob. :)

Thanks in advance,

-Irmo.
I'm not as think as you drunk I am.

Offline Archaegeo

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Re: Instant death.
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2008, 11:30:43 am »
Hi,

I am posting just because if you notice there have been over thirty views of your message but no replies. The reason is the same as always and it has NOTHING to do with you as a person, so please do not take this as an attack.

You are very honest, which is great, about your lack of experience with LPC. But then you also do a typical newbie admin thing, wanting to change core systems or implement new things.

The problem with that is that those of us who have been working with LPC for a while, over a decade in some of our cases, understand that with you're level of knowledge right now, you don't even know how to ask the right questions, much less understand what we would reply with unless we took the time to first teach you and then you took the time to grasp comprehension of the language.

To put it another way, you are right now a person who just started French (spanish, japanese, whatever) and are asking someone who speaks it natively how to write a novel without even being able to grasp grammer yet.

Again, this is definitly not a personal attack. In many cases, posts like yours never even get a response.

Take the time to learn LPC, then take the time to learn the lib you plan to code on. Help out on someone elses mud, make an area or two using the tools and standard features. Then in six months or so, think again about your desire to create the world in seven days :)

I do wish you luck, and if you choose to pursue your current course, success.

Archaegeo

Offline irmo

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Re: Instant death.
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2008, 01:45:22 pm »
I appreciate the way you're pointing out the facts without complaining or being dissrespecfull, thank you.

There's a few things I'd like to mention though.

1. I'm a builder, not a coder. I will probably never become very good at coding. The reason why I decided to start my own mud, is simply because there isn't anyone else who's going to do it for me. There aren't any muds in my native language, and I know more then a few people who'd atleast be interested in playing.

2. So I've been modifying the DS lib, translating output messages mostly, which is an awful job, and it's generally keeping me from concentrating on building the actual mud, let alone learning how to code, beyond basic LPC. I know it isn't the best excuse, but that's my situation; there's months, if not years of translation/modification work ahead of me.

3. I don't know many coders, just a few friends who've never worked with DS and can't afford the time to learn the lib. I know asking people to code for you is generally being frowned upon but I'm somewhat desperate. I figured that the two things I had asked for would be simple enough for most people - I was actually hoping someone had done it already and would be willing to share.

Btw. English isn't my first language, in case you're wondering why my grammar is all weird. :)
I'm not as think as you drunk I am.

Offline irmo

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Re: Instant death.
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2008, 02:08:13 pm »
Also, I'm not impatient or too lazy to study LPC, nor am I trying to create a mud within a small period of time. I took the time to learn basic LPC (very basic tho), created more then a few areas, and have worked on several other muds. I'm just simply not very good at lib coding.

I guess I will have to bite through the sour apple though, eventually, and take my time to learn, since I'm determined to stick with this project.
I'm not as think as you drunk I am.

Offline chaos

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Re: Instant death.
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2008, 06:41:26 pm »
What is it that you mean by "instant death"?

Offline irmo

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Re: Instant death.
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2008, 06:52:52 pm »
Basicly, a more realistic death system. I want players to have only one life, dying means loosing your character. Ultimatly, having them become a ghost or a zombie - being limited to only a few commands - would make it perfect.

I could basicly just remove the regenerate and wander options, to stop players from ressurecting, but that's just a first step.
I'm not as think as you drunk I am.

Offline Ashon

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Re: Instant death.
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2008, 10:58:22 am »
Instead of trying to edit all of the output I'd spend more time looking for a client that can convert ASCII to unicode so that you can play in a native language then trying to convert all the output of one game into a native language.  Or we could just pester Craty to recruit someone to convert the game to unicode.

Offline chaos

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Re: Instant death.
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2008, 03:06:26 pm »
The kind of death model you're talking about is usually referred to as 'permadeath'.  If you search on that term, you'll find all kinds of discussion on the subject.

It doesn't seem quite "right", to me, to do a crippled ghost state if there is no hope of returning from that state.  As a player, if I turn into a ghost, the next thing I do is start looking for a way to resurrect, and if that's impossible, you're just wasting my time.  If my character is gone, disconnect me or drop me back to the account-level interface, if any.

Offline irmo

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Re: Instant death.
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2008, 04:48:02 pm »
Instead of trying to edit all of the output I'd spend more time looking for a client that can convert ASCII to unicode so that you can play in a native language then trying to convert all the output of one game into a native language.  Or we could just pester Craty to recruit someone to convert the game to unicode.

I want the mudlib to be in my native language, not having a client convert English to another language. I don't know much about unicode, or ways to convert English to another language, but I suspect that it will not be quite the same.

Thanks anyway, it's still nice to hear other possibilities even if they don't work for me.
I'm not as think as you drunk I am.

Offline irmo

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Re: Instant death.
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2008, 04:58:37 pm »
The kind of death model you're talking about is usually referred to as 'permadeath'.  If you search on that term, you'll find all kinds of discussion on the subject.

It doesn't seem quite "right", to me, to do a crippled ghost state if there is no hope of returning from that state.  As a player, if I turn into a ghost, the next thing I do is start looking for a way to resurrect, and if that's impossible, you're just wasting my time.  If my character is gone, disconnect me or drop me back to the account-level interface, if any.


Yeah, permanent death sounds more like it. Sorry about that.

I'm also not sure about having some form of afterlife, but completely erasing a char after it dies doesn't seem right either. I like the idea of giving dead characters ghost status, but I also agree that it isn't a great idea and will most likely cause frustration. Perhaps having the character choose, right after it died, wether it wants a grave and eternal rest or wander around as a disturbed ghost (with the needed information stating that wandering is not going to bring them back to life) would be an option.
I'm not as think as you drunk I am.

Offline Nulvect

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Re: perma death
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2008, 01:36:52 pm »
The most simplistic way to do this is to just use a flag - that is, an int variable - in your player code that is turned on when they die. Basic functions to go with this as well:

Code: [Select]
int Dead = 0;
void set_dead(int x) { Dead = x; }
int query_dead() { return Dead; }

After that, you just have to change a bunch of stuff to check if (player->query_dead()) and act accordingly.

Offline Zvim

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Re: Instant death.
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2008, 11:06:26 am »
There are pros and cons to having a severe death system, from my experience they are not popular.  People invest a lot of time in their characters and get attached to them, if you were to die due to network issues then you would feel cheated.  A major problem with severe death systems is that it doesn't encourage adventuring and exploring, people will do things safer and I think the game should be enjoyable to play even if it is at the expense of realism.

Offline quixadhal

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Re: Instant death.
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2008, 01:47:27 pm »
The number one thing players like to have is the illusion of control over their character and its destiny.  I can't stress that enough.

A player will happily stress themselves out for months, playing a hardcore Diablo II character, and not bat an eye if their death comes from " a good fight."  However, when a player dies due to an exploit, a bug, or even just being overwhelmed beyond having a chance of survival... the forums light up with their cries.  In essence, it's not the lost time, it's the loss of control.  THEY didn't get to choose to stop playing their toon, and so they feel cheated.

I used to play BatMUD, which had an interesting way of handling death.  When you picked a race, you were given a lifespan, and you know how long your character would live.  Every time you died, you became a ghost and could try to get a player to revive you, or head to the church and pray there.  If a player revived you, you got back some of the experience you were carrying, and you only aged a little bit.  If the church revived you, you lost all your experience, you aged a fair amount, and you acquired scars which lowered your attribues until you could have them healed.

There were ways in the game to reverse aging, so you could extend your life a bit... but they had diminishing returns, so you couldn't hold them off forever.  I should say that aging always happened, just death caused your age to jump up as a penalty for the system shock.

Long story short, the player had some control over their eventual perma-death date.  They couldn't avoid it, but they could push it further away if they wanted to do so.

To add to that, I always thought a player should have the additional option of choosing to die permenantly (while in ghost form), and perhaps gifting a small portion of their experience to a new character -- either their own or someone else.  One way to do it would be for them to choose a new name, and once you verify it's available, put them into the character creation state again, but set their experience to some fraction of their old experience, rather than 0.  Or translate the experience to money, or an item, or something else cute.

Offline irmo

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Re: Instant death.
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2008, 07:07:38 pm »
Thanks everyone for replying and making it easier for me to understand some of the issues I was struggling with.

The reason we wanted to use a perma death system on our mud isn't so much because we want our mud to be "realistic", but moreso because it seemed to match perfect with our plan and visions. However, some of your comments have really helped me in seeing some of the downers and side-effects. I will not touch the death system untill I'm atleast 99% sure we have a chance of succesfully implementing a new system, without risking the chance to cause mass frustration amongst our players.

-Irmo.
I'm not as think as you drunk I am.