Author Topic: Help on choosing a mudlib  (Read 2628 times)

Offline parham

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Help on choosing a mudlib
« on: June 03, 2010, 10:55:48 AM »
Hi there,

As some of you might know (those who pay attention to the DS channel and such), I have been popping in and out of LPC development again and again. After a good deal of thinking, I have found what the problem is. It is a question that might be too complicated, or might be just asking for too much, so I'll ask, and leave you to judge and to be so kind as to help me along.

I and a friend are planning on starting to program a mud. However, what we have done that has stopped us from going further every time, is that we try to dig too deep (E.G. add new  commands while just learning the LPC language, trying to change skills, remove all races so you can be only a human, trying to change sign up questions, etc). Noting that we are both blind (yes, we can't see), you can imagine that we have no love for writing descriptions that are mainly visual. So, I have two questions.

1. Since we really love creating a mud, what do you suggest we do; start our own, or join the staff of another mud?

2. If you answered "start a mud of your own", what mudlib do you suggest? I find DS wonderful, both in terms of support and examples and such, and I do not feel that bad about verbs these days (due to having learned TADS, Text Adventure Development System which offers a similar system). However, what bothers me is the large set of stuff I might never even use at all (E.G. spells, skills, classes, or races), or would probably change (E.G. add new skills, remove existing ones, change the casting system so that, say, there is a 3-second delay between closing your eyes and the spell working, etc). Therefore, seeing that I need a mudlib with the support DS offers, what do you suggest? I am not that good in LPC yet to say whether or not DS allows these stuff being changed, so I do not offer an opinion. I just am trying not to be bogged down by all these features and get to things when I need to change them. That reminds me of the third question (I said two, but an exception? Please?):

3. In case you answered "start a mud of your own" to the first question, where do you suggest we start? Add commands? Modify mud-related stuff (E.G. skills, races, combat, spells)? Since as I said, we have no liking towards descriptions, we're planning on doing the kind of things I talked about above (I know, it requires much more learning and hard work, but we're willing to put the effort into it).

Thank you, everyone. And I hope finally we can contribute something to the wonderful LPMud community.

Offline drakkos

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Re: Help on choosing a mudlib
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2010, 12:19:28 PM »
My personal advice is always - consider joining an established MUD and working your way up.  It's far more fun to work with other people than it is to work on your own, and it's even better if you're working with experienced people who can provide useful, constructive feedback.  If you can find a MUD that actually has some players and is looking for a couple of pairs of hands, so much the better.  It's a world of difference from coding a MUD that people may never see[1], and being able to actually put stuff into the hands of players sooner rather than later.  It's more educational to get a feedback cycle going, and it's also way, way more fun.

As to which MUD you want to code for, there are two main things you want:

1) A theme that appeals
2) Friendly, helpful people who are willing to invest some of their time in your training.

Most established MUDs expect that the people they hire are at least moderately familiar with the game itself, so actually playing and appreciating the MUD is vital.   Unfortunately[2], many established MUDs expect people to start at the bottom and work their way up (you have to prove you can be trusted with the small stuff before you can be trusted with the big stuff), so it depends on how much you're willing to 'pay your dues'.

I would always recommend this over starting a new MUD - the experience of working with people and for players is vital if you are ever expecting to see people playing your game.  Once you've got that experience and you feel you can go it alone, then that's the time to think about starting up something new. 


Regards,
Drakkos

[1] Sadly, that's most of the MUDs that get started.
[2] For you - it's actually a very good principle in practice
Epitaph Online - http://drakkos.co.uk

Offline tigwyk

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Re: Help on choosing a mudlib
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2010, 04:26:07 PM »
I've never asked this before but I'm really curious now that I have a rapt blind audience.

How would you describe rooms, objects, mobs, etc?

As someone who isn't blind, I sort of take it for granted that my descriptions of things make sense to people, but you've just thrown me a massive curveball in the sense that who knows if the blind players on our mud even care about half of the descriptions we write.

If I say the ball is red with polka-dots, that doesn't really matter to you, does it? (No offense, I'm just REALLY curious now.)

This is actually kind of an exciting topic for me since I'm very much into the philosophy of what we perceive around us using the senses we have available to us.

Offline Nulvect

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Re: Help on choosing a mudlib
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2010, 05:56:00 PM »
Slightly off topic here, but I once played a mud that had a race of.. gremlins or imps or something that were normally blind. They had a magical sight ability, but it drained magic pretty quickly so half the time you couldn't use it.

The game made moderate use of sounds and other descriptors, so it was still possible to get around, but any time an area was lacking in sounds it was really bad. And combat was scary.

That experience often influences the way I describe things now. I think about how a tornado spell would sound, or how someone would smell after they get burned by a fireball. It can open up a rich experience if you make it a consistent part of the game.

Offline quixadhal

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Re: Help on choosing a mudlib
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2010, 10:08:39 PM »
That actually brings up a very good point.

In good prose, a scene is described by the things that stand out to the character who is observing that scene.  Good writing doesn't just make use of visuals, but invokes any senses that are appropriate, and even "feelings".

Many MUD room descriptions don't really do this.  They try to detail the visual layout, because that's what other MUD's have done in the past.

Because humans are visually oriented (we evolved large brains specifically to deal with colour vision and rapidly determining if motion is danger or prey), that is what we usually focus on.

Coding a MUD to take advantage of day/night and seasonal descriptions is easy enough, but building areas that make use of all that takes a lot of time and patience.  Likewise, adding effects to the characters to simulate loss of vision/hearing/scent adds many more layers to the building process.

With a blind player, it brings up the additional issue of how much of the visual description actually makes sense.  Someone who lost their sight later in life may still visualize a description fully, but to someone who has never seen a given shape or colour, how much does "green" really mean?

I know a friend of mine sees red and green as pretty much the same thing, but I don't know if what they actually see is what *I* see as grey, or some other colour (maybe even one I can't see).

Adding prose to describe other senses, if done carefully and not overbalancing, can make the game more immersive anyways.  Rather than describing the grassy plain that goes on forever in all directions, perhaps toss in a line about the sound the wind makes rustling the grass, or the scent of the heat-baked dirt of the trail winding through it... :)

Offline parham

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Re: Help on choosing a mudlib
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2010, 11:22:00 PM »
Hello,

There are some kinds of descriptions that actually do make a difference, not because of the beauty of the thing described, but rather because of the words that have been used to describe it. So, for me (I am thinking maybe it would be different for other blind MUDders), the description has a litteral value, not a visual one, meaning, I do not visualize what I read about (I can't). There are some things you can visualize though (walls, some houses, things that you have been involved with, touched, interacted with in real life), but not, say, lions, or bears, or fireballs (which you could never touch without being hurt!).

Regarding other senses, yes. I used to try to feel/listen/smell/taste everything (an interactive fiction habbit), but I just gave up the habbit when I saw that there are not much of those descriptions anyway.

So, that's why I can't write a description. The thing is, logically, the sighted visualize something, then put it into words. I can not visualize many things (depending on the theme) and hence I don't even know how they look, let alone describing them.

Thanks a lot for the responses. I guess I'd go and look for a MUD in which my job, as a beginner coder, doesn't involve creating an area... which reminds me, what could I even do for a mud? Let someone else write the descriptions and then proofread/add the programming stuff for them (E.G. scenery objects, unusual objects that require coding, etc)? If I knew what things there are that I could do, I'd feel more sure of myself and would know what my tasks will be, in the future.

Thanks again!

Offline drakkos

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Re: Help on choosing a mudlib
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2010, 03:18:02 AM »
I guess I'd go and look for a MUD in which my job, as a beginner coder, doesn't involve creating an area... which reminds me, what could I even do for a mud?

Area coding gets a bad rap amongst 'techy' mud coders, but it can be a lot more challenging than simply 'here are some rooms, here's how they're linked'.  If you can be paired with someone who 'writes but doesn't code', there's no reason why you can't have a really excellent area come out.  I guess it's the difference between area building (putting together rooms from preconfigured blocks) and area coding (which means putting in quests, special kinds of interactions, mini games, and so on).  Those latter things can even be done without actually being part of an area - some MUDs offer a range of board games for example. 

If you're upfront about the fact that, for very valid reasons, descriptions aren't something you feel are an appropriate use of your time, then there's still a lot you can potentially contribute even if you're not working on areas.

Bug-fixing is the most obvious thing (and one of the most valuable) - few things teach you the ins and outs of coding the way that a subtle bug can as you track through the system.  It's also something that's relatively unglamarous and often neglected - but each bug you fix directly improves the quality of a MUD. 

Part of the problem with giving advice on it though is that is depends very much on which MUD you end up on - some MUDs have very strict policies about who gets to do what when.  Some are more lenient.  Some make a firm distinction between coders and builders, and some are more flexible.  Grabbing hold of an existing developer in a quiet moment and just asking them how it all works for that current MUD can save you a fair degree of pain and effort.

Hope this helps,
Drakkos.
Epitaph Online - http://drakkos.co.uk

Offline detah

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Re: Help on choosing a mudlib
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2010, 08:55:33 AM »
1) wrt blindness. Are you expecting only blind players to play this mud? Are the PCs going to be blind too? That will determine how much effort you need to put into the SetShort and SetLong descriptions of your objects. And regardless if the player is blind or not, there are many things that are relevant for the PC character besides color. For instance, it is vitally important that you describe rooms and objects with dimensions, proximity, size, and texture. These will all be things that will go in the SetShort and SetLong descriptions. Besides, I see nothing wrong with you describing "A crimson-red lion" despite you not knowing what crimson red is. So long as your mud has some Fantasy theme, I think this would add value. When a blind player reads that, it is still distinct from the "A lion" appearing in the room and also provides variety in NPCs. While for the sighted player (if you have any), this adds considerable fantasy flavor to the game.  A common lightbrown/blond lion may be a challenge in combat, but a crimson red lion seems more entertaining, whether you know the difference between blond and red or not.

2) This idea that mudcoding (here I mean lib-coding) involves 'lots' of description-writing is nonsense. Lib-coding has almost zero description writing. I have been coding Arcania for over 4 years now and I have not written one object description yet. Now, for area building, that is a totally different thing. Writing descriptions may be 50% of the time you spend on creating an area. But I would argue that writing the descriptions is the most important part of writing an area, as the SetLongs are the means, by which, you tell your story to the PCs. It is really the only thing that the player sees/knows about your area.

-Detah@Arcania

Offline parham

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Re: Help on choosing a mudlib
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2010, 11:30:41 AM »
1) wrt blindness. Are you expecting only blind players to play this mud? Are the PCs going to be blind too? That will determine how much effort you need to put into the SetShort and SetLong descriptions of your objects. And regardless if the player is blind or not, there are many things that are relevant for the PC character besides color. For instance, it is vitally important that you describe rooms and objects with dimensions, proximity, size, and texture. These will all be things that will go in the SetShort and SetLong descriptions. Besides, I see nothing wrong with you describing "A crimson-red lion" despite you not knowing what crimson red is. So long as your mud has some Fantasy theme, I think this would add value. When a blind player reads that, it is still distinct from the "A lion" appearing in the room and also provides variety in NPCs. While for the sighted player (if you have any), this adds considerable fantasy flavor to the game.  A common lightbrown/blond lion may be a challenge in combat, but a crimson red lion seems more entertaining, whether you know the difference between blond and red or not.

I have to respond to your message point-by-point here, so sorry if the emssage is a bit long.

First of all, I actually am going to join an established mud, as was suggested by another member in the second post. Therefore, yes,there are going to be sighted players much more than blind players.

Yes, not knowing about crimson-red is one thing, but not knowing whether or not we actually do have a crimson-red lion, and if we do, what it looks like down to the smallest detail (E.G. by having seen it in a movie, or in pictures, etc) is completely a different thing. The latter is my problem.

2) This idea that mudcoding (here I mean lib-coding) involves 'lots' of description-writing is nonsense. Lib-coding has almost zero description writing. I have been coding Arcania for over 4 years now and I have not written one object description yet. Now, for area building, that is a totally different thing. Writing descriptions may be 50% of the time you spend on creating an area. But I would argue that writing the descriptions is the most important part of writing an area, as the SetLongs are the means, by which, you tell your story to the PCs. It is really the only thing that the player sees/knows about your area.

-Detah@Arcania

Sir, I never claimed that lib coding requires writing descriptions. I just said I am too much of a beginner in LPC to go and fiddle with lib code, and neither am I able to write descriptions. As I aforementioned, though, I can implement things for the description-writer who does not have any intention of messing with any code (E.G. making an NPC agressive, writing a quest, creating a door, etc).

Now, why would I mention the fact that I am unable to write descriptions? Because when you are appointed as a new admin, you are (most of the time) given an area to work on. Working on areas on your own means writing descriptions plus writing the code. So, I said I cannot write descriptions, so that others would know, in case they are going to ask me to join the staff of their MUD.

Thanks for the responses! Keep them coming! (By the way, I applied to join the mud staff on New Worlds Ateraan (NWA), on which i have played for months, and I am awaiting a response)

Offline memrosh

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Re: Help on choosing a mudlib
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2010, 03:04:46 PM »
The fact that you happen to be visually impared and like to play on a MUD should send up a large flag to all Admin and coders around the world.  You represent a part of our population that is often not thought about when developing the MUDs interface. I have played on some MUDs that are so focused on visual discriptions and pretty formatting that someone using a 'reader' is overwhelmed with info and symbols that does nothing but detract from the experience.

Parham: You have much to offer any MUD that you participate in. Your thoughts and feedback will allow those that currently code there to improve it as well as make it friendlier to a broader audiance.  If they do not, then it is their loss.  When the time comes for you to help code, you will be able to bring your own unique perspective as well as learn what the audiance as a whole would enjoy.  This will definantly aide you when you do begin developing your own MUD.  Definantly check out MUDs running different Libs so you will get an idea of what one you may like to work with.

When I worked as a regional Admin on a MUD years ago, my mantra was: If it can be imagined, it can be coded in LPC.

Memrosh

Offline parham

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Re: Help on choosing a mudlib
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2010, 11:08:30 PM »
Thank you, Memrosh. Actually, NewWorlds, the one I have applied to, has an active blind playerbase, and they actually care a lot about the blind players. Let's see if I'll get an answer! *smiles*

Offline amylase

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Re: Help on choosing a mudlib
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2012, 08:57:20 PM »
Hey parham just install Dead Souls and modify it to get started. That's the quickest way. What a lot of people do is they aim too high and try to think of a grand complex game which never gets to be finished. So just get the basics up and running, which Dead Souls readily offers. Then just modify things from there onwards.

Tigwyk raised an interesting question. Text based MUD can potentially benefit blind people greatly since there are graphics. Just need to plug in a text to voice generator. I think some of the existing clients already have the function. AT&T's Natural Voices are good engines and should be able to work on Zugg's MUD client.

Offline Shem (aka MadScientist)

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Re: Help on choosing a mudlib
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2012, 01:53:15 AM »
I caught this thread a bit late, so I have comments for several people:
 
@Parham: I agree its easier to learn LPC while working on a working project, with help.  (I happen to be tackling a very large project at the moment myself and I'm missing working as a group like I used to.)  However, it's also useful to tinker in the background with your own MUD driver/lib.  (Policy may dictate you can't touch/see parts of the MUD that you may want to learn about; easier to do that on your own box than playing the politics to gain access to theirs.)  In summary, do both of those options; but focus on the existing MUD in the short run.
 
Another thing is that just because MUDs typically have clear roles (ie Builder vs Coder); you have a good reason to suggest some exceptions.  What if you were paired with another Builder for awhile?  You could focus on all the things they (as a sighted person) normally don't think of.  I'm guessing the areas you worked on would be some of the best well rounded visual + (other) senses in the MUD.  Higher quality work, possibly faster, would be good motivation for a Admin to try it.  If your blind friend also was an another team; you have 2 learning inputs into any personal project the two of you do together.
 
@Tigwyk: It's not just the Blind that are impacted.  For example, I'm Low Vision, Hard of Hearing, and have a few other constant medical issues that make life Interesting.  Plus, all of the above can fluctuate; so some days I'm keeping up fine, and other days I can't see/hear/etc well enough to keep up with my normal tasks.  MUDs generate a lot of text noise that give the screen readers trouble.  Or, as a partially sighted person, I don't always read fast enough to keep up with the miles of scrolling text telling me things that aren't really interesting to me.  (It's part of why I've been thinking about more than two modes of Brief/Verbose text descriptions.  Plus after adding in Multiple Sense 'channels' of sorts; it can be quite complicated.)
 
The other day I suddenly lost about 80% of my hearing for about 5 hours.  I could hear, sort of.  However, what amused me was how many other clues there were that were related to sound events; but were not actually percieved as sound.  Audio was immediately superceded by Touch.  Since I still had aspects of both; I was trying to correlate how many of the vibrations on my skin, or under the soles of my feet, actually mapped to known sound events that I could deduce with my semi functional eyes/ears at the moment.  It was an interesting exercise.  If MUDs could get to that level of descriptions, likely programmatically, then Blind players, or Blind Characters, etc ... would have a much more intereactive experience.  *nod Nulvect*
 
@Quixadhal: Check out some of the really good color blindness tests.  For example, the iPhone has a fairly good free one you can download.  There are multiple types of color blindness; and it doesn't seem to be just a boolean value set; you may be able to understand your friend better after experimenting with the color slides.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Offline Camlorn

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Re: Help on choosing a mudlib
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2012, 12:53:16 PM »
Somehow in the course of writing this, it became a rather large wall of text:

Well, I'm blind myself, so I do know what I'm talking about here--not that others don't, but getting answers from the sighted only goes so far.  The answers here are quite good and I agree with almost everything, but blindness really does have to be experienced.  Two disclaimers; I've never released anything and I do have a bit of vision.  I am completely color-blind (so far as I'm aware I see the world in grayscale).

    As a blind person, there's no reason to be afraid of descriptions.  You can, truthfully, write them as well if not better than anyone else.  If you play muds for a while before trying to write your own, you'll know what colors things typically are and what adjectives typically go with them.  I don't know, for instance, what exactly a tiger looks like, but I like to read so I know what tigers are associated with; I know that green is generally something applied to plants, red typically to blood, and the like.  I know that a fearsome tiger is a perfectly reasonable description, as is green foliage with pointed leaves.  Most muds don't even go that far, nowadays.  As for things like fireballs and dragons and the like: it's fantasy.  Is it blue with purple dots?  I doubt the player will much care, so long as you're not too over the top; there've been dragons with fur, and perhaps your fireball spell is globes of burning oil.  The best approach is to try to describe things in terms of other things, not to try to describe them in terms of themselves--that's easier said than done, and you have to be careful not to use too many similes.  For the most part, knowing that something is burning is enough; as soon as you try to describe exactly what the flames are, you begin to lose your audience.  Want to evoke violence? "The carpet is the crimson of blood."  Want to evoke growth? "The green of grass" or perhaps "The clean, fresh air."

    The vaguer you let something be while still describing it, and you have to be talented enough to pull this off, the more real it can seem (I've seen this in a few places--I'm not able to do it, few are).  Essentially, everyone sees everything differently--to you, grass isn't green plants; it's something that crackles, probably, or something that feels a certain way on your feet.

    Descriptions are something everyone finds difficult, including myself, and you're not the only one who can't write them--I don't believe, however, that this is a function of blindness; I think instead that it's a function of life experience and writing talent.  Some people can write a book; that doesn't mean I can, even though I like to read them.


    I tried, once, to get a project with lpc going.  It didn't end well, because I didn't like most of the mechanics from everything.  If you don't like most of the preexisting mudlibs at all, do be aware that it's sometimes easier to build new systems than tear them out--if you want to redefine magic and combat and the like, you may be better off starting with something lacking those features.  I'd look around and see what is available that's more minimalistic.  That said, everything you mentioned in your first post as wanting to do should be doable with, for example, dead souls which is just about as far from minimalistic as it's possible to get.  It really comes down to how much you want to change from the default mudlib and how good at coding you are.

     If you're not dead set on lpc, and I know this is blasphemy on these boards, you could go learn something like java.  I'd only do this, though, if you want to do something *really* different.  All of my project ideas were that way, and I eventually decided that, if I was going to write a mudlib from scratch, I'd do it in a language that I can go get a job with.  I'm in college for a computer science major, however, so making it a marketable skill is more important to me.  By something really different I mean quite literally dropping the idea of a room to some extent.  I will say this though: learning a new programming language while trying to start from nothing on a mud (You don't even have a room until you write it, and you're going to end up writing the network code too, so you can't even connect) is like jumping into the deep end of a pool when you don't know how to swim; you might learn to swim, but you're probably going to sink.  I didn't learn programming on a mud and, in fact, when I taught myself programming I hadn't even heard of them.

    You already know tads, so you do know a "real" programming language.  It's for a specific domain, but a lot of the knowledge will transfer to lpc; you can probably transfer half of it to java and a third of it to c++ (java is much, much simpler than c++).

    As for your actual question, should you start your own or join one, I'd also say join one.

    To everyone else:

    Firstly, a mud client for the blind is much more than just connecting a voice.  In general, it calls into the screen reader directly via apis that the screen reader exposes.  The screen reader already provides a voice configured to the user's preferences and a way to get at that voice; I, for one, wouldn't want to have two text to speech voices going at once.  What exactly a screen reader is and how it's different from just a text-to-speech voice probably deserves a post of it's own.  I will say this, though, I've never heard of a blind person using ZMud.  Generally, it's mushclient with one of the screen reader plugins that are floating around or, more recently, vipmud a non-free client written specifically for the blind (and with which I have many, many problems given that I can get mushclient to do more with the same level of accessibility and without paying $30).  For anyone who might read this and is looking for a mud client for the blind, if you have any computer skill beyond the basics, go look up mush-z or one of the mushclient tts plugins; mushclient does more and, in fact, you could almost write a mud or webserver on top of it (this would be a hack to rule all hacks, don't actually try).  And, people can actually help you do things.  Again, this probably deserves a thread if there's enough interest.

    As for descriptions.  I can only speak for myself, but I do read them and I do appreciate well-done ones.  But, I don't read them again, and if your mud doesn't let me turn them off while leaving enough useable navigational information in a non-spammy format, I'm gone.  Generally, I turn brief on, and it better provide some sort of exit list, and type look for the full description when the short description interests me.  The issue here isn't that I can't appreciate them, it's that I can't skip them without skipping other stuff--as text comes in, it's put into a buffer of things to be said; I can stop the speech by emptying that buffer, but I then have to go back and manually check everything I just skipped.  Others may read them more or less than I with varieing levels of enjoyment etc.

    I would say that, for the blind, it has to do with life experience.  I got into books about 4 years back and, now, am running out of things I want to read simply because I've read most of the good stuff that everyone reccomends; I now spend entire afternoons looking for new books to read, simply because all the lists I find list exclusively things I've already read.  This gives me a good working knowledge-base of things that I can't see; I don't know exactly what they look like, but I have enough information to, for example, solve a quest.  My reading habbits are primarily fantasy, so that helps even moreso with the mudding descriptions.

    And, I'll never admit it to them, but my parents also had a lot to do with this.  From a very, very young age, they would go out of their way to get me first-hand experience.  I've been in a real plane cockpit (before 9/11, obviously), felt a possum, the list goes on forever; I can't remember most of it simply because that kind of thing was so common in my childhood.  I'm not saying the op didn't have these kind of experiences, just trying to answer the question of how I see the world.  My small bit of vision helps, of course, but most of the things are "Like an x but without y"; as my list of x without y grows, so does my understanding of the world because each "x without y" combination becomes another x.  I probably see the world way, way differently than most people, simply because some level of distortion does occur when you only have descriptions, but I have a model and can enjoy/write a description for a mud based off that model, and you can't tell that my model is different.

    Firstly, end wall of text.  Secondly, I really need to add this forum to my list of forums to check on.