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Lib Discussion => Dead Souls Support => Topic started by: cratylus on December 01, 2008, 11:25:46 am

Title: CratMud
Post by: cratylus on December 01, 2008, 11:25:46 am
I've been thinking this whole Dead Souls thing over and I think
it's time to finally let folks in on my master plan. For those
with short attention spans, I'll cut right to the chase:

* I think I'll be done with major public dev of DS within a year.
* At that time I'll release DS 3.
* I'll still make minor fixes and stuff, where necessary.
* At that time I'll start to focus on developing a mud based on DS 3.

CratMud NYAQ (Not Yet Asked Questions)

Quote
#1 You can't be serious. Is this for real?
Oh very much so. Later in this post it will be clear how
much thinking I've done on this. If you've followed the
progress of DS since 2005 when I picked it up, you
should know by now that when I commit to a thing, by
gum it gets done. The only question is how long it'll
take, and this post is intended to sort that very thing out.


Quote
#2 So what? Why do I care?
I'm making this announcement for a couple of reasons which I
will get into a little bit later. Why it might matter to *you*
is the following:

- You might feel odd about adopting a codebase whose author
is going to open a mud you might feel in "competition" with.
By making my intent clear, I hope to stave off any hurt
feelings from this. It might sound weird, but some folks
are very sensitive.

- You might at some point discover that you are not up to
really running a mud. By knowing that you might be able to
put your DS knowledge to use as a member of the CratMud team,
it might help you feel better about your current tinkering.


Quote
#3 GTFO! What will the mud be about?
If you've looked at DS 2, you know I'm of an eclectic frame
of mind. It turns out that having swords and guns in the
same codebase is not a coincidence. The mud I have in
mind has the conflict between the technological and the
fantastic as its theme. There will be three worlds. One where
only technology works, one where only magic works, and one where
both of them work, and where the battle for supremacy between
the two camps is waged.

This means that whether you prefer "modern/futurist theme" or
"sword & sandal" stuff, or a mix, there will be a world
for you to enjoy.


Quote
#4 Why are you announcing this now?
This question also touches on *why* I'm announcing it, and
what the point of my approach has been, so let's get all
that stuff addressed.

Until the framework for vehicle combat was in place, I
could not have even an idea of when DS 3 would be done.
Now that I have the basic grid system, I can feel confident
as to the completion of DS 3 within a knowable timeframe.

I'm announcing it prior to the release of DS 3 because on
the day of that release, I want to be in possession of
the knowledge of how long it will take me to open. I want
to already have an admin cadre by then and a general
process for how things get done. I do not want to release
DS 3 and then fling myself into the ether. I want a
continuum of effort to be in progress, through release, and
into the foundation of CratMud.

Another reason I'm announcing it now is that I think there
is a critical mass of current adopters and dabblers who can
start to get used to the idea of maybe contributing. It's
my hope that within the next year, folks who've become
familiar with DS over the past 3 years warm up to the
idea of joining up on a single project. Announcing now gives
me time to talk to folks who want to join up, set the
right expectations, and give folks time to make considered
decisions. What I don't want is to spend time I could
be using more profitably in the aggressive search for staff.

And by the time I do release DS 3, if no team at all
has come into being, I will at least then know that much,
and will be prepared to shoulder the complete DIY burden,
should it come to that.

As you all know by now, DIY is something I've come to
be quite comfortable with ;)


Quote
#5 Is CratMud for real the name?
Ew, of course not. That's just the working title for now.


Quote
#6 When will it open?
Ask me on the release day of DS 3.


Quote
#7 When will DS 3 be released?
Within a year of this day.


Quote
#8 OMG did you really have this all planned out this way from the start?
More or less. The coin flip was whether someone else
would get to it first. I figured if nobody opened a
big DS mud, I would. Nobody has. Yknow me, DIY.


Quote
#9 If you open a big mud nobody will come to mine. I feel betrayed.
Sorry I didn't tellya. However, this logic is flawed.
CratMud is no more a threat to your project than is
any other mud, and even if it becomes as huge as
other muds, well, those muds don't really threaten
you either.


Quote
#10 Where do I sign up?
Whoa thar! First things first. Let me tell you how things
will work, and *then* you can decide if you want to join.

I hope most of you know my leadership style by now. Both
on intermud and on this forum, I am pretty mellow almost
all the time. I'm not a micromanager, and I prefer to
be as hands-off as possible. My preferred "hat" is not
of the rulesbound hammerwielding admin, but rather a
coder, working happily in the background.

I view my role primarily as coder and arbiter of last
resort. I would much prefer to have a cadre of admins
who don't mind being the first line of decisionmaking
in terms of disputes/quality control/hiring.

The folks I want to hear from first are those who can
see themselves committing to fulfilling such roles. It
may take months for those roles to be filled. Maybe
they never will. But until I know either way, I will
not be hiring "individual contributors".

I need a staff first.

I think it might seem weird that I am making this
call publicly. I think perhaps the tradition would
call for me to have already approached people quietly.
I'm a weirdo I guess. I'm big on things being open,
so here it is. If you think you'd like to be in on
this staff thing, come to Dead Souls and let's talk
it over.

If a staff comes together quickly, builder/creator
hiring might happen quickly, but let's get to the bridge
before we cross it.


Quote
#11 What if you start a mud and nobody comes?
Then we will have had fun doing it anyway :)
This *is* for the fun of it, right?

Anyway, that's all I can think of to say at the moment.
Feel free to comment...I'm sure I've left areas of unclarity.

-Crat
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: Sryth on December 01, 2008, 03:50:55 pm
Very interesting.  I like the way you're bringing this forward with this much advance notice.  Some good things to think about.

Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: Yarp on December 01, 2008, 04:45:08 pm
Ambitious project, opening a new mud this far past the heyday of mudding in general.  Good luck!

Also don't you think the "separate worlds" thing is almost as overdone as Midgaard is on Diku?  I've seen a lot of random muds (particularly LPs) where they have separate worlds, and it usually appears that it was just because they couldn't be bothered to go for one overall theme or setting so they just went for the easy way out in order to mash it all together.
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: cratylus on December 01, 2008, 05:10:59 pm
Good luck!

Thanks :)

-Crat
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: shigs on December 02, 2008, 01:38:18 pm
Ambitious project, opening a new mud this far past the heyday of mudding in general.  Good luck!

Also don't you think the "separate worlds" thing is almost as overdone as Midgaard is on Diku?  I've seen a lot of random muds (particularly LPs) where they have separate worlds, and it usually appears that it was just because they couldn't be bothered to go for one overall theme or setting so they just went for the easy way out in order to mash it all together.

Just because something has been over-done poorly. Doesn't mean an ambitious team shouldn't try to do it properly.
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: Yarp on December 02, 2008, 04:47:48 pm
I'd say go for it, but again, you're at least 8 years too late for most people to take any real notice unless you do an absolutely bang up job.

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade and honestly I think that having a production mud running the latest version of DS is a great idea, it just seems that the theme is pretty bland is all.  There's plenty of non-continuity muds out there, so you'd have to find some way to differentiate yourself other than "we still have messy prompts and the Diku boys don't!" or something. :P
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: cratylus on December 02, 2008, 05:07:34 pm
honestly I think that having a production mud running the latest version of DS is a great idea

Me too! And I feel pretty strongly about it being important
for the codebase as a whole.

I suspect there's no way everyone will be pleased with
every decision made, but then, what else is new ;)

-Crat
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: Tricky on December 02, 2008, 06:28:18 pm
Just make sure you get the core synergies of human resource paradigms correctly worked out.

Tricky
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: Sryth on December 03, 2008, 11:38:33 am
Quote
Just because something has been over-done poorly. Doesn't mean an ambitious team shouldn't try to do it properly.

This was my first thought as well when I read Yarp's post.  It is true that quite a few muds out there have attempted the "Multiple Worlds" concept, however, I have only seen one that has done it well, and that particular one is quite successful.  There is no reason whatsoever that it can't be done well around the general idea that Crat has put forward, it certainly wouldn't be easy, but nothing worthwhile is.

Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: Nikeos on December 03, 2008, 12:16:10 pm
Just from knowing your work for this long and watching things get better and better with DS, I'm looking forward to see what you're going to do with this project, Crat. It will be interesting to see how you implement all the ideas that you have into your MUD and really get things going.

Good luck!
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: chaos on December 03, 2008, 04:21:59 pm
Pleased to hear it, Crat.  You seem to be well-prepared for the inevitable and instantaneous naysaying.  I agree that this will be a major benefit to DS; lib development is much enriched by intimate entwinement with serious production use.

tl;dr: Yay.
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: Lash on December 04, 2008, 05:13:25 am
Cratylus,

Congratulations on your decision to go in this direction. Sounds exciting.

The mud I have in mind has the conflict between the technological and the fantastic as its theme. There will be three worlds. One where only technology works, one where only magic works, and one where both of them work, and where the battle for supremacy between the two camps is waged.

On this idea one of my inspirations is Coast to Coast AM with George Noory. 

Quote from: Sryth
It is true that quite a few muds out there have attempted the "Multiple Worlds" concept, however, I have only seen one that has done it well, and that particular one is quite successful.

Sryth, is the mud you mentioned still up and running? I'd like to find out some more information about it. Could you point me in the right direction?

Lash



Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: chaos on December 04, 2008, 08:07:25 am
Probably talking about 3K (3 Kingdoms).  They are definitely popular.  Whether they've done anything whatsoever "well" is very much open to debate.
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: Sryth on December 04, 2008, 11:29:34 am
Quote
Sryth, is the mud you mentioned still up and running? I'd like to find out some more information about it. Could you point me in the right direction?

Actually I was referring to 4 Dimensions.  See this link... http://4dimensions.org/ (http://4dimensions.org/)

Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: chaos on December 04, 2008, 03:51:33 pm
Ahh.  Much more on the doing things right, there.  Of course that means less with the popular.  Way less.
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: cratylus on March 28, 2009, 09:23:33 pm
An update on this project...

The name of the mud will be Dead Souls Prime

What this does is retain the DS "brand" while at the same
time setting it apart from the Dev/Demo mud, which will be
named: Dead Souls Dev

How development will work:

Much of my recent work in the DS lib has been to enable
a system called "instances". What this does is allow you
to run multiple "copies" of your mud from the same code...
so that the exact same LPC code runs two separate muds.

One advantage is that you can isolate a development
instance from a production instance, such that a tragic
error on the part of a creator doesn't affect live players.

Another advantage in isolating prod and dev is that
there is no chance at all of a sneaky creator cheating
and giving a pal some gold or extra skills...they just
can't do so unless they are made creator on the production
instance as well.

A neat thing about the new instances system is that as of
a17 folks on different instances can communicate. So even
though you can't trans your buddy to a slime devil pit,
you can still tell to her and chat on the local channels,
see when they log on/off, see them on the who list, etc.

While these new instance features aren't released in the
distribution lib yet, you can test drive them on the
two instances for yourself:

Dead Souls Prime: telnet dead-souls.net 6666
Dead Souls Dev: telnet dead-souls.net 8000

Development for Dead Souls Prime will happen on Dead Souls Dev,
which will continue to be an AUTO_WIZ mud and will be open
for anyone to come and develop on. If a creator decides she
wants her work put into the production game world, then she'd
let me (or staff [hopefully]) know and then the QC process
would get rolling on her stuff.

This is perhaps an unusual arrangement, but I think it
is well suited to the kind of informal development style
and casual approach to hierarchical roles I prefer.

-Crat
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: cratylus on June 23, 2009, 10:21:47 pm
So I'm testing a web-based client for Dead Souls Prime, and
I found one that supposedly works even for people behind
really restrictive corporate firewalls and stuff.

Unfortunately my work does not restrict my internet :(

For some of you normals out there with office jobs, please check
for me if you can access this from your fascist office (assuming
it doesn't get you into trouble):

http://mudkipz.org/test

thanks!

-Crat
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: saquivor on June 24, 2009, 01:43:27 am
Works for me just fine.

Being a Ubuntu fan boy I am also aware of a project inspired by anyterm (ajaxterm)that has good documentation including how to use SSL.

So may be of help to anyterm too.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AjaxTerm
http://antony.lesuisse.org/software/ajaxterm/
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: Raudhrskal on June 24, 2009, 01:59:45 am
Last time i tried ajaxterm it required that evil python backend... and its VT100 compatibility wasn't very good neither.
Personally, i really like shellinabox (http://shellinabox.googlecode.com) - it too has SSL support and can work as a standalone server or a CGI... but I have absolutely no idea how much effort it would take to make it work on Solaris.
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: detah on June 24, 2009, 01:10:34 pm
Test results

The Good.
Well, technically, it worked for me. Specs: PC, Win XP Pro, Firefox 3.0.11. I am also behind a network firewall. So double success.
The Bad.
During char creation I had 12-13 second delay/lag on every command. During play I had 3-5 second delay/lag when issuing basic commands like who, sc, and chatting on newbie chan.

-Detah
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: cratylus on June 24, 2009, 01:21:18 pm
For some people there's lag, for others, not. It's weird.

I just changed some options and recompiled the app.
Would you mind trying again and seeing if it's still uberlaggy for you?

-Crat
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: detah on June 24, 2009, 01:33:52 pm
Test #2

Same specs as last time.
Seems a little better now.
I created a new char. Char creation commands took between 0-5 seconds. Oddly, it seemed to alternate, instantaneous on one command followed by a 5 second delay on the next command. During gameplay 0-7 second delay. I issued the same command several times and got different lag results. Sometimes it would be instantaneous and sometimes it would be 5 seconds. the only command which took over 5 seconds (7 seconds) was 'help stat'. This was repeatable.
'who' took between 0-5 seconds and I tried it dozens of times. I also tried several long say commands and those were consistently 3-5 seconds. Sometimes the pause occurs and the typed text does not appear on screen as an echo and sometimes the echoed text occurs and then the delay occurs. It is my impression that the majority of the delay is caused by the app receiving my typed info.

-Detah
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: Cole on June 24, 2009, 01:55:07 pm
I was able to connect at work behind a fairly restrictive firewall, but I'm having the same issues as Detah. I'm on a laptop running XP Pro and IE7. Would be really sweet if it ran smoothly!
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: saquivor on June 24, 2009, 03:42:19 pm
It now no longer works from work?

Firewall/Proxy is blocking port.

block screen shows
    *  Click the Refresh button, or try again later.
    * Open the dead-souls.net:6655 home page, and then look for links to the information you want.
    * If you believe you should be able to view this directory or page, please contact the Web site administrator by using the e-mail       address or phone number listed on the dead-souls.net:6655 home page.

Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: cratylus on June 24, 2009, 03:50:41 pm
Try now. if you are able to connect, it should dramatically fix the performance probs.

-Crat
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: saquivor on June 24, 2009, 03:57:24 pm
Ha stopped working behind proxy/firewall for me still?
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: cratylus on June 24, 2009, 04:05:22 pm
Ha stopped working behind proxy/firewall for me still?

fascinatin.

gimme a few minutes
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: cratylus on June 24, 2009, 04:11:39 pm
Ok, new request. Please try both of these.

http://dead-souls.net/dsp

http://mudkipz.org/test

Which work? Both? Neither? If both, which works best?

-Crat
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: Cole on June 24, 2009, 04:22:29 pm
The dead-souls.net one works, but is still very slow. The other does not work. It gives an "internet explorer cannot display the webpage" error as if the site was down.
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: saquivor on June 25, 2009, 01:52:50 am
Ok, new request. Please try both of these.

http://dead-souls.net/dsp

http://mudkipz.org/test

Which work? Both? Neither? If both, which works best?

-Crat

http://dead-souls.net/dsp works behind proxy server. Not as responsive as the other system, about 2-3 secs lags at time. But usable.

http://mudkipz.org/test not working behind the proxy. But using this last night from home had last lag.

Saq

PPS Never hosted an SSL version of anyterm. But some of the posts indicate that using SSL reduces the lag for proxies, as many proxy servers just pass SSL requests direct.
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: cratylus on June 25, 2009, 01:53:32 pm
Ok then...try:

https://dead-souls.net/dsp

Any better?

-Crat
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: saquivor on June 25, 2009, 04:03:33 pm
Works great using now from home and work.

Tested from work using IE7 from Windows 2008 terminal server.

Also provides encrypton which is great too :)

Will try from my Ubuntu laptop tomorrow as well.
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: Newt on June 26, 2009, 05:09:17 am

https://dead-souls.net/dsp


Using the latest Firefox I got this when trying that link:

"dead-souls.net uses an invalid security certificate.

The certificate is not trusted because it is self signed.

(Error code: sec_error_ca_cert_invalid)"
Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: saquivor on June 26, 2009, 06:30:04 am
You will need to add an exception and download the certificate to continue.

Will still be encrypted, just not signed by veritas etc!

Title: Re: CratMud
Post by: cratylus on June 29, 2009, 03:33:13 pm
Yeah, I looked into the signing authorities that standard
browsers accept as default. If the point is avoiding newcomers
getting confused by "SSL exception" notices, those are the ones
to use. It turns out it's like $700 for one of these things, with
an annual fee. I'm not coughing up for that. If you guys want
to take up a collection that's fine by me, otherwise I'm going to
just let newbies be confused, if they really have a problem with
self-signed certs.

So this is what I've mostly settled on:  http://dead-souls.net/demo.html

I think it's actually a bit too many choices, but it'll do for now. Maybe
down the road I'll take out the "non SSL" links. I think they're ok
for now, for people confused/freaked out by the SSL popups.

-Crat